Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search pcHDTV Forum Index
pcHDTV Forum

pcHDTV Forum Index -> General pcHDTV topics -> Misc thoughts/?'s: Broadcast flag, new ver of pcHDTV, ... Goto page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic  This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:34 am Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




i think you're mixed up. i just looked again at eff.org's documents about this. 5C actually refers to a consortium of 5 tech companies, who all agreed to implement encryption based on the presense of the broadcast flag. so there's some conflation of terms; people refer to the broadcast flag as 5C.

future cards may have to comply, but if i remember correctly there is some kind of grandfathering.

regardless, as the FCC rules are written now, OTA transmissions can never contain a broadcast flag other than "copy freely", if you believe what you read at AVSForum.

Scott Larson wrote:
pfile wrote:
actually they should work fine. i think 5C is just a flag and that is all. a STB is supposed to detect this and then encrypt any data its delivering out of its firewire ports, or HDMI or DVI ports.

I'm talking about the broadcast flag, not the 5C flag that's already been implemented in STB's. HD-2000 and HD-3000 don't comply with the broadcast flag but it looks like future cards will have to.
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:32 pm Reply with quote
Scott Larson
 
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 713
Location: Portland, OR




So the "5C" flag that is preventing cable STB firewire ports from talking to non-5C devices is the same broadcast flag people are talking about?

I know OTA stations are prevented from encrypting their main programming (although they can encrypt other services). I thought the broadcast flag wasn't really encryption, just a flag to tell copying devices that the copy they write should be flagged as "uncopyable" and that's why it would be acceptable for OTA broadcasts.

Whatever it is, I don't see how cards that allow the transport stream to be written to disk could comply with any copyright protection scheme that doesn't involve encryption. I don't know whether I should ignore the issue or start buying HD-3000 cards while I still can. Laughing
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:09 pm Reply with quote
Guest
 




5C and the 'interface protection' for firewire has *nothing* to do with ATSC and its implementation of the broadcast flag. The BF in ATSC is a descriptor in the PSIP stream. Look no further than the A/65 spec et al. The two are only related by mandate and the requirement on devices to secure the stream or downrez it if it is flagged on the broadcast end.

The HD cards will continue to work because most don't have anything beyond a kludged table parser to roughly figure out where the program streams are in the ts. Interestingly enough some cards like the Fusion recently had driver patches because stations that turned on the BF broke their kludged program stream parser. Quite hilarious.

As for security -- you don't need encryption to secure the device, you just parse the ts in silicon and throw the data away at the chip level. This is not trivial to implement, but the benefit is that most vendors integrate standard tuners and decoders on their boards. Its likely a few companies will produce BF secure decoders and those will be implemented on the boards just like all others. The IO interfacing from there for board manufacturers is trivial.

The only way to make pre-deadline cards comply is at the driver level. Which is why the PCHD card is such a good idea and why the windows-based directshow-cards are really bad ideas -- they will all reach a 'last known flag ignore' version and you will be left with whatever bugs they have at that point.

A card which hands you the raw TS is the best way to go. Thats just MHO.

Also to note most stations with static PSIP encoders are just enabling the flag for everything, so good luck to our windows brothers there. I spent way too much wasted time writing code with the broken model that is directshow...

Scott Larson wrote:
So the "5C" flag that is preventing cable STB firewire ports from talking to non-5C devices is the same broadcast flag people are talking about?

I know OTA stations are prevented from encrypting their main programming (although they can encrypt other services). I thought the broadcast flag wasn't really encryption, just a flag to tell copying devices that the copy they write should be flagged as "uncopyable" and that's why it would be acceptable for OTA broadcasts.

Whatever it is, I don't see how cards that allow the transport stream to be written to disk could comply with any copyright protection scheme that doesn't involve encryption. I don't know whether I should ignore the issue or start buying HD-3000 cards while I still can. Laughing
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:37 pm Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




i defer to Guest, he's obviously legit Smile

Anonymous wrote:
5C and the 'interface protection' for firewire has *nothing* to do with ATSC and its implementation of the broadcast flag. The BF in ATSC is a descriptor in the PSIP stream. Look no further than the A/65 spec et al. The two are only related by mandate and the requirement on devices to secure the stream or downrez it if it is flagged on the broadcast end.
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Scott Larson
 
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 713
Location: Portland, OR




Anonymous wrote:
As for security -- you don't need encryption to secure the device, you just parse the ts in silicon and throw the data away at the chip level.

Damn, that would work and it's probably what they'll want and it will make ATSC cards based on those chips a lot less useful.

That's it.. I'm going to buy two HD-3000 cards. I think I'll buy a couple of motherboards with 5V PCI slots too while they're still around!
View user's profile Send private message
Misc thoughts/?'s: Broadcast flag, new ver of pcHDTV, ...
  pcHDTV Forum Index -> General pcHDTV topics
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All times are GMT - 7 Hours  
Page 2 of 2  
Goto page Previous  1, 2
  
  
 Post new topic  This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.  


Powered by phpBB © 2001-2003 phpBB Group
Theme created by Vjacheslav Trushkin