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Re: RF data collection (tangential distraction)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:04 pm Reply with quote
xyzzy
 
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 225




Scott Larson wrote:
xyzzy wrote:
You have cable as well as an antenna? What channels do you get that lead you to believe that you get frequencies near 150 MHz and 450 MHz correctly?

Yes, I have cable too. I've used one of the QAM drivers in the past but my cable company doesn't carry enough local channels for me to use it regularly.

So what channels do you get that make you think you get 150 MHz and 450 MHz correctly?

Scott Larson wrote:

Quote:
My other problem is that certain X activity when using the nvidia driver kills digital reception. It appears it's not a PCI or software problem, but something to do with the top-secret demodulator.

And how did you conclude that the demodulator is, uh, incompatible with the Nvidia driver? Lots of us been using them both for over two years. This would be major news to all of us.

Well, because it drops packets like crazy during X activity. This only happens with the nvidia driver, not the open source nv driver. I turned on the cx88's mpeg error registers, since I do have the datasheet for that chip, and it looks like it's not FIFO overflows but bad data coming out of the demodulator. Now maybe if I had documentation for the demodulator, I could look at the bit error rate and see if something is going on there.

Quote:

Quote:
If I had documentation I could do a lot more.

While you're getting the specs for the top-secret demodulator, why don't you ask Nvidia for the specifications for their top-secret driver? Rolling Eyes

I wish they did release specs. Maybe their driver wouldn't have so many problems. Before you say, "what problems, my hardware works perfectly?", go check Nvidia's Linux board and you'll find no end of people with problems.

Why do you hate it so much that people want documentation for their hardware? Maybe you are unable to do anything with it, but some of us are. Do you resent that, and that is why you are so argumentative?
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Re: RF data collection (tangential distraction)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:56 am Reply with quote
Scott Larson
 
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 713
Location: Portland, OR




xyzzy wrote:
So what channels do you get that make you think you get 150 MHz and 450 MHz correctly?

Cable channels 19-61.

Quote:
Well, because it drops packets like crazy during X activity. This only happens with the nvidia driver, not the open source nv driver. I turned on the cx88's mpeg error registers, since I do have the datasheet for that chip, and it looks like it's not FIFO overflows but bad data coming out of the demodulator. Now maybe if I had documentation for the demodulator, I could look at the bit error rate and see if something is going on there.

The CX88 decodes MPEG? I thought it had no concept of MPEG. It just turns VSB-8 or QAM into a byte stream.

Quote:
I wish they did release specs. Maybe their driver wouldn't have so many problems. Before you say, "what problems, my hardware works perfectly?", go check Nvidia's Linux board and you'll find no end of people with problems.

I wish I could say I didn't have problems with their driver.

However the specifications for their driver are in the README file. They specify what systems the driver will run on and what hardware it supports.

Quote:
Why do you hate it so much that people want documentation for their hardware? Maybe you are unable to do anything with it, but some of us are. Do you resent that, and that is why you are so argumentative?

I'm totally for manufacturers releasing documentation on their hardware. Specifications on the other hand are often useless, at least the ones I've come across. They'll tell you whether or not something will work in certain applications but that's it. They're more suited for press releases and wowing marketing people.

My company has a hardware group that buys products based on their outstanding specifications. We discover these products won't work in thousands of our systems because specs are traditionally just general facts about a product.

"But the specifications showed this was the best product out there!" Yeah, it was evaluated in labratory conditions, not in the godawful real world locations we put our systems in.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:54 pm Reply with quote
GrepTar
 
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 51




Hmm, can I reply?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:55 pm Reply with quote
GrepTar
 
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 51




How come I can't post a new topic, but the spammers don't have a problem doing it?

I was wanting to post inkling's patch ported to kernel 2.6.12.2, but I can't post it, I just get 503 errors.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:00 pm Reply with quote
GrepTar
 
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 51




Well, I'll just put it here:

http://www.greptar.com/2.6.16.2_pchdtvr_patch.txt

Then cd to the top of your kernel source tree and do:
patch -p1 < [wherever you put that file]

Hope this helps. Many thanks to inkling.


Last edited by GrepTar on Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:03 pm Reply with quote
GrepTar
 
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 51




OK, I figured it out. I can't put a URL in my message unless it is enclosed in the URL tag. Giving me a 503 error service not available is the perfect way to convey that information to me.

Is there another pchdtv board out there that doesn't suck as hard as this one?
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Re: RF data collection (tangential distraction)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:11 pm Reply with quote
xyzzy
 
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 225




Scott Larson wrote:
xyzzy wrote:
So what channels do you get that make you think you get 150 MHz and 450 MHz correctly?

Cable channels 19-61.

That's very interesting. According to Jack Kelliher the production version of the HD-3000 shipped with DTT7612 tuners, only the prototype used a DTT7610 tuner. Try tuning to channel 60 and then going up to 61, and then 62. Check that the channel comes in clearly and that it's actually the correct channel. If I changed from channel 61 to 62 the only thing I noticed was a slight reduction in picture quality. I didn't think anything was wrong until I noticed it was still showing channel 61.
Quote:

The CX88 decodes MPEG? I thought it had no concept of MPEG. It just turns VSB-8 or QAM into a byte stream.

Neither. The or51132 demodulates 8-VSB or 64/256-QAM into a digital MPEG-TS stream. It's not just raw digital data, the MPEG-TS format is part of the spec. Function two of the cx88, the "MPEG Port", transfers the mpeg-ts stream into memory. The cx88 does understand that it is MPEG-TS data that is being transfered, and has error checking it can do related to the structure of TS packets. The OR51132 also has error checking and can signal information to both the cx88 and to its internal registers. If I had more documentation about the or51132, I would know a lot more about what is going on.

Quote:

Quote:
I wish they did release specs. Maybe their driver wouldn't have so many problems. Before you say, "what problems, my hardware works perfectly?", go check Nvidia's Linux board and you'll find no end of people with problems.

I wish I could say I didn't have problems with their driver.

However the specifications for their driver are in the README file. They specify what systems the driver will run on and what hardware it supports.

When I say specs, I mean programming specifications. What someone would need to write a driver.
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Quality of Service
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:49 pm Reply with quote
inkling
 
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 342




dieter wrote:
Just because you do not find signal strength to be useful doesn't mean it isn't useful to others.


Are you going to be manually moving your antenna around during capture to find the optimal signal path?

As I said, the only possible use for it would be to control an antenna rotor. I've seen signal strength of 91% with junk stream data and signal strength of 45% with perfect stream data. Typical strength with good stream data is between 75-85%.

A Quality of Service reading provides more useful information than assuming that a certain signal level is good. That's the QoS% field in pchdtvr, in case you were wondering. QoS will eventually be used to control my antenna rotor.

dieter wrote:
We need to KNOW what the abilities are.


Why? You can't collect the data to determine what the limits are for yourself? Do you have to have the teacher draw the answer on the blackboard?

dieter wrote:
"currently being distributed" meaning what? 2.6.16 ?


Did I stutter? The meaning is clear. It's not Clinton-speak. The driver from linuxtv.org is broken due to ignorance on the part of their developers.

Anything that uses that particular codebase, from kernel 2.6.12 on up, is also broken. Is that clear enough for you?

Michael Krufky, the self-proclaimed "unofficial" ATSC maintainer, doesn't even have an HD3000, much less an HD2000. He told me this himself, when he finally bothered to pry himself away from watching live-TV because he apparently does not have a decent capture tool. How could he possibly know, from first-hand HD3000 experience, what works and what does not? He relies on feedback, then promptly NACKs it like some kind of defective automaton.

inkling wrote:
I had to rewrite driver to not check signal strength if there is no signal lock


dieter wrote:
Huh? Why? If you are, for example, trying to aim an antenna, you need to know the signal strength, even if there is no signal lock. Perhaps *especially* if there is no signal lock.


I don't know how much background you have in digital design, so I'll leave it to you to figure out what this means:

Lock is the clock. The data is only valid when the clock is valid. If you read the data when the clock is invalid, you get invalid data. Junk data is worthless.

That's the secret, now pass it along.

dieter wrote:
I've seen lots of postings where people say doing the least little thing hurts the capture.

Or does this "robust capture tool" issue some magic ioctl to fine-tune
some parameter?


There's no magic. It's only applied science. No chickens were slaughtered to do it. No Wiccans or Voodoo priestesses were consulted. Jim Morrison is still silent, where ever he is. Shirley McClaine and her crystals were not contacted.

Can you guarantee how long write() will take? Of course not. Not even Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox would attempt to make such a claim.

It takes as long as it takes, and if you don't have a read thread filling a FIFO, with a write thread draining it, you will experience packet loss dropouts when write() blocks. Yes, you can use non-blocking writes and increase the complexity far beyond what is required, but why would you? Only old Forth programmers say "Don't thread on me."

I've seen lots of postings where no one bothers to mention what tool they are using to capture with, and then wonder why no one can help them. There is no Providing Proper Information to Determine the Cause of Failure 101. That should have been covered in Common Sense 101.

A lady called me one day and asked me, "How do I tell the difference between the male and female connectors?" I said without hesitation, "Look down." Utter silence for 15 seconds, then a hushed "Thank you."

Thank you for letting us know what capture tool you are using. It explains at least some of your problems.

dieter wrote:
So you are not losing lock? Programs like ffmpeg, mplayer, xine
do not complain about your mpeg2ts files?


I live in a terrible multi-path urban environment. I lose lock more frequently than I would like. KHOU has a 28.5 second periodic transmitter glitch that they have not fixed for over a year now. I even drove across town, twice, to test it 4 miles from the antenna farm, and 40 miles from the antenna farm. Same result. Their system is broken and they don't know how to fix it. Quality does not exist at KHOU.

xine plows right thru the garbage. It is even kind enough to mute the audio when it is bad, unlike mplayer.

I don't use mplayer because of the horrendous audio screeching with even the slightest AC3 error.

I have no use for ffmpeg because I do not wish to degrade the video quality of the stream below what is received. I got the cards for HDTV, not to wear out my computer turning it into DVD-grade TV and certainly not for NTSC, which I couldn't receive even if I wanted to.

Funny that. 1 MegaWatt 8-VSB receives better than 5 MegaWatt NTSC. Bad multipath, as I said. The Mars Rovers get better NTSC reception than I do. Voyager 1 probably gets better NTSC reception than I do.

pchdtvr was specifically written to withstand the errors that make other capture applications drop dead in their tracks. The capture log breaks the errors down by the second and that in turn tells you if the capture is worth watching.

If the reception is good, I can play Doom3 on the same machine that has three captures going at once, without any glitching of the captures and with very little lag in Doom3.

S'ok? S'alright.

-ink
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Re: Quality of Service
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:19 pm Reply with quote
xyzzy
 
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 225




inkling wrote:
I've seen signal strength of 91% with junk stream data and signal strength of 45% with perfect stream data. Typical strength with good stream data is between 75-85%.

Maybe the signal strength is wrong? Could be the driver isn't reading it correctly.

Quote:

Michael Krufky, the self-proclaimed "unofficial" ATSC maintainer, doesn't even have an HD3000, much less an HD2000. He told me this himself, when he finally bothered to pry himself away from watching live-TV because he apparently does not have a decent capture tool. How could he possibly know, from first-hand HD3000 experience, what works and what does not? He relies on feedback, then promptly NACKs it like some kind of defective automaton.

That hasn't been my experience at all. I've had many patches accepted by the people at linuxtv. You want hostility, try the mplayer developers.

inkling wrote:
I had to rewrite driver to not check signal strength if there is no signal lock

What exactly happens that is wrong? I don't seem to have any problem reading signal strength without a lock.
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parametric downconversion
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:05 pm Reply with quote
inkling
 
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 342




Jim wrote:
So can you steer us to the chipset specs? Like how to measure rf strength on the fly? How about the tuner specs, pinout?


From what I understand, it's all under NDA and the only way you're going to get it is to be employed by someone who has signed the NDA. It's so secret no one will even tell me what NDA stands for. I think it's a pizzaria term for No Dang Anchovies.

This means of course, that you will not be allowed to divulge any information about what you learn. In addition, you must write any driver in uncommented 6502 assembly language and obfuscate it with the DVD-CSS Title key from the Platinum Disc Corporations' Three Stooges Disc #4 Title "Nertsery Rhymes".

If you divulge the information in any other form, you will be required to forfeit your first-born, along with your house, your car and your television. They will leave you with a cellphone, in case they need to notify you that there is something else they will be taking from you.



Seriously, Jim, does not azap provide you with this information? I know someone mentioned changing azap to print the values as percentages instead of the 4 digit hexadecimals for strength and SNR.


A photon is an energy field. It can be any frequency you like, from less than 1 Hertz, to greater than 1 TeraHertz. A photon has no inherent frequency limit, but our photon detectors do.

Parametric downconversion is when the energy of one photon is split to create two or more photons of lesser energy and lower frequency.

When an electron orbiting an atomic nucleus is hit with a photon, it puts the electron into a higher energy state. Hit it with an energetic enough photon and it will knock the electron completely out of every energy shell the nucleus can support, creating an ion and a free electron.

When an electron recombines with a nucleus and jumps from the higher energy state to a lower energy state, it can give off a photon of similar energy to the one that kicked the electron up or out, or for large nuclei with many energy levels, it will produce a photon for each energy level transition. Each energy shell produces photons of a characteristic energy level, and each atmoic nucleus has characteristic energy levels, thus enabling the Science of Spectroscopy. Whoopie!

So it's neither the strong force nor the weak force. It's the electromagnetic force. The magnetic field is 90 degrees perpendicular to the electric field, just like the magnetic field around a conductor. As the photon travels through time, the magnetic field corkscrews around the path of the photon with the rotation rate equal to the frequency of the photon.

Easy as pi, whoops, I mean lambda.

Tomorrow we'll cover angular momentum and the Law of Conservation of Energy to explain why the energies of each photon do not quite add up to the total energy input into the system.

Nah, just kidding. I'm probably the only one here who thinks physics is light reading.

I'm working on a double-slit experiment with radio waves, using ionized gas for detectors,
just for grins. How do you like that for an RF strength measurement?

See you at Milliways!

-ink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Jim
 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 88
Location: Greater Portland ME joined jan'05




guess you are really weak on strong and weak force physics, but hey more important that you know the dark force secret stuff that our free society should not know..No more free speech..it could circumvent copy protection that our real government i.e entertainment companies want to control. It was a bad day in America that we ourselvesles ruled that we could not tell someone else in our living room how to do something... circumvent copy protection... HowTo circumvent government control? Too bad Russia is gone, we used to say they were doing a bad thing.,

_________________
Stars Up, Lights Down... International Darksky Association... Be a good neighbor, shield/turn off your lights.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:28 pm Reply with quote
Jim
 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 88
Location: Greater Portland ME joined jan'05




oh please update us on on an ionic tweeter like used in the 50's
and sold in the 70's with the helium tank.

_________________
Stars Up, Lights Down... International Darksky Association... Be a good neighbor, shield/turn off your lights.
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Ringing the bell
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:30 pm Reply with quote
inkling
 
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 342




xyzzy wrote:
There is more information in that chip than works/doesn't work and more settings than on and off. It might be possible to take a signal that doesn't work, and make it work.


Trent, the University of Washington owes you a gigantic refund, with interest. Unfortunately for you, it's at least 4 years you'll never get back. Even with all your degrees, you still can't see the forest for the trees.

It's called the digital cliff-wall effect for a reason. Yes, it is pretty much either on or off. Just like a digital signal. Sometimes there is a bit of hysteresis:
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/sethna/hysteresis/WhatIsHysteresis.html
but it is usually corrected by a 1 or 2 degree antenna adjustment. Us old hands call that ringing on the edges of the square waves, because that's what it looks like on an oscilloscope, like the tapering vibration of a bell that has been struck, or a torsional force that is applied to and released from a steel beam.

Was Electrical Engineering in your curriculum? How about Mechanical Engineering? Chemical Engineering? Physics? Do you understand the concept of the collapsing electromagnetic field in an inductor and in which direction the current will travel? Have you ever re-created a Nikolai Tesla experiment by shooting a lightning bolt across 50 feet of laboratory? Have you ever melted the hardest steels known to man in a magnetic furnace as if it were butter in a boiling pot of water? Have you ever built a superheterodyne FM receiver from 3 transistors, two inductors, a handful of resistors and capacitors with a variable cap for a tuner? How about the same, only with tubes?

What are you going to do, wave around a dead chicken foot to improve a bad signal? Is that what they were teaching in college back in 1997? I realize the proximity to Redmond has had a deleterious effect on all the academia located near Seattle, but I did not suspect it would be that bad.

xyzzy wrote:
So the entire concept of controlled experiments is a flawed one? Are you capable of civilized discourse? If you are not, please leave it to those of us who are.


Sonny, don't even attempt to be condescending with me. You're not any good at it, much like Computer Science. Let me show you how it's properly done.

Impolite would be calling you a dumbass. Uncivilized would be saying you should be lit on fire and ejected from the premises with a ballista. Do you notice the subtle differences? One is plainly rude, and the other is simply barbaric. I take it you didn't do very well in English Literature 101.

If I had known about your degrees earlier, I would have been a LOT more harsh on you. I'll correct that oversight now. Had I known, I would have suggested the ballista, because for someone who claims to be a Computer Scientist, you sound more like a Scientologist.

Unfortunately for us, you don't seem to understand the most basic concepts underlying the hardware or the software, or apparently even Science in general.

Controlled experiments helped the Merck Company get Vioxx to the market. In case you haven't been reading the news, that turned out quite BADLY for them AND their victims, er, patients.

There are many other examples where controlled experiments have fallen way short of what is observed in the Real World.

Remember two fellows named Pons and Fleischmann? I'm sure they claimed it only works in a 'controlled' experiment.

It's called the control for a reason, because you already know what to expect from it. It doesn't do any good to collect data on something you already know. You only learn from the blind part of the test, not from the control.

I suppose we should all be glad you chose Computer Science rather than Pharmacology or Medicine. I know I am.

xyzzy wrote:
I don't think a mutli-threaded capture tool is needed for the DVB drivers.


You got the first three words correct, the rest is a non sequitur. It does not compute.

xyzzy wrote:
The DVB driver creates a kernel thread to copy and filter the data out of the cx88 DMA buffers and into the dvr0 device buffer. The dvr0 device has a buffer for about a half second of HD data. So 'cat' effectively is multi-threaded.


Is that a half-second of full stream, or a half-second of filtered stream, or a half-second of video only, or audio only? Did they teach you the difference between a FIFO and a ring-buffer, and where each should be used, and why?

No sir. cat is still cat, cat still blocks on write(), and cat is still a single-threaded program that will not get back to the read() until the write() is done. No one can say how long it will take write() to unblock, because that is temporal delta x, the unknown time. The kernel ring-buffer will overrun and data will be lost if the write() does not return soon enough.

Since neither you nor Linus Torvalds can guarantee when write() will unblock, you must realize that it will not always return in time to prevent loss of data. How do you handle this fact? With a large enough FIFO to handle most situations and multiple threads, that's how.

No proclamation from you will change the fact that cat is a blocking single-threaded program. Can you use cat to burn a CD-ROM? How about a DVD-ROM? No? cdrecord has a FIFO? What's that for ?!? You must think they are IDIOTS for using a FIFO in cdrecord. Surely the hard drive is fast enough to make sure the CD-ROM 2M cache will never be empty. Who cares about any extra loading the system might experience? I'll tell you who cares. Anyone who wants to be sure their data is not corrupted.

So you found a gaffe in driver where it was using DTT7610 rather than DTT7612. Good job, but it doesn't affect 8-VSB ATSC because those two frequency offsets at 150 and 450 MHz are not used by broadcast.

Jack Kelliher has already stated that support for cable is problematic because of the lack of standardization in the cable industry and because of the encryption. A lot of people will have encrypted channels on those frequencies, so for them the point is moot.

By the way, I looked carefully through the bttv hardware i2c code and did not see your name mentioned. Perhaps you did something 9 years ago with it, but I can't find any paper trail, not even a one line credit in bttv-i2c to verify your claim. While I'm not exactly calling you a liar, the veracity of your claim leaves something to be desired.


You wouldn't be trying to sell us a truck-load of Vioxx, now would you laddie?

You also claim to have some code for the cx23883 bad packet counter registers, but I don't see the code anywhere. More Vioxx? You can see MY cx23883 bad packet counter code in my driver patch posted on nop.org. It's there but it's disabled because the data it returned was useless. The demodulator is very good about putting in the sync byte, even with trashed packets, so Start Of Packet is always good, the byte count is always good, and the FIFO rarely overflows.

The case was somewhat different on the HD2000. It did have some sync problems, but I solved that by detecting when it was out of sync and reading the correct number of bytes to get it back into sync.

xyzzy wrote:
Well my HD-3000 doesn't. I'd like to fix it.


I'm sorry to hear your card doesn't work right. It sounds like your nvidia card is spewing RFI to such an extreme extent that it's affecting your HD3000.

Did you try moving the HD3000 to the slot farthest away from the nVidia card? Are you using RG-6 quad-shield, or trying to cheat with RG-59? Are you using a decent antenna with an 8 bay bowtie, like a CM4228, or just a Radio Shack 10 dollar bowtie?

Did you try using a robust capture tool, something multi-threaded with a FIFO like dtvstream? Did you try another video card?

Just so you know, I've been designing working hardware and software systems since before you were even the twinkle of a reflected photon in your daddys' eye.

Put another way, I've been building working systems longer than you have been alive. Your daddy was likely still in college, chasing girls and guzzling beers, when I was hitting the RUN switch on the PDP-11 and watching my hand assembled programs work on the first try.

I suppose you could always find a job at Microsoft. Maybe you already have.

How's that for uncivilized? Can you tell the difference now? Did you collect and understand all of the data points presented?

Finally, I'd like to ask you a pointed question:

Did Mike Krufky send you out here to annoy us after I hurt his widdle feewings when I told him the cx88 driver sucked? I don't recall you piping up with any of your flawed misconceptions before that.

-ink
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mexican jumping beans
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:56 pm Reply with quote
inkling
 
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 342




Hey Jim, if you want an example of the strong force, pull my finger.

Hey Jim, you think Geiger counters have Mexican jumping beans in them? I've got a box of spare shift keys laying around. Want me to send them to you? If you shake the box, it sounds just like Mexican jumping beans. You can tell your friends it's a Geiger counter and If you shake it near your monitor, you can prove to all your friends that a few shift keys in an empty box rattles when you shake it, kinda like my head when I take the screw-driver outta my ear.

Hey Jim, what broadcast flag? Aren't any broadcast flags in any of my captures. It's dead Jim! Yeah, you know I've been waiting to say that.

Even PEE-B.S. stopped sending it. Hollywood must think they're a bunch of no-goodnick commie sympathizers, and Bush haters, and war-haters and Group W bench sitters. I'm calling Officer Obie.

Hay Jim, dat thar dark energy is a bunch of dang hawgwarsh. A lot like wut 99.999999% of Hollywood pushes these here days. Shirley, I wouldn't let my hawgs watch tee-vee. Taint nuffin but an insterment of da devil. Might give 'em ideers, make 'em rise up against their yuman vasoppressors. Why ya'd even want to let the gubment brainwarsh ewe n yers with all da subminimal mine-control massages sent over dat thar dang tee-vee toob, beats me bubba. Taint woth dat dang 60 yar old bomb shelta cheez.

Hay Jim, you and I both know there hasn't been anything good on TV since they pulled Awl In Da Family, the homey tale of the Mafia cobbler family, trying to make shoes for a living and making dem EYE-talian gestures at everyone. That blockhead wazzhizzname cracked me up. Archibaldy Bonkerelli. That's it. Yeah. That's the ticket. He had a kewl moto-sickle didn't he?

Man, this forum hasn't seen this much traffic since the last attack of the spammers.

Hey Jim! See ya at Milliways!

-ink (keeping it real since 1955)

[burp]

Lights up, stars down, just to annoy your local astronomers. They aint doing anything but tryin to get some peace away from the Honey-do's.
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donald duck
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:04 pm Reply with quote
inkling
 
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 342




first they take away our TV, next they'll take away our helium tanks so we can't talk like donald duck anymore.

man the country is going to H-E-double-hockey-sticks in a handbasket.

where will it end? the place is beginnin to smell like britain.
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Specifications for HD-3000?
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