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Good enough
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:32 pm Reply with quote
animefreak3
 
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 41




"Good enough is the enemy of perfection."

I like your cards, I got two of them. I think I paid a lot for them, and I helped a friend get his too. The cards do not make a business.

By the time the HD5500 came out the issues with 64bit, and the three big archs should have been ironed out. Cusomers can forgive a lot. This time it's different, this time it smacks of not putting enough of what was coming in, back out into driver dev. Sitting on Fedora Core also hurt you. It's the worst standards based Linux there is. Redhat had the the market when the LSB came together, so they wanted no part in it. This is why all the devs who support it now are all suffering.

What I'm saying is I'm hurt now. What I bought is fully functional, but b/c I use the full power of my 64bit kernel I have a non-functional set of high priced nic-naks. If I tear apart my systems to work within the limitations of your drivers I can get them working, but bring down my whole network. This is not what I paid for. I don't want a refund, I'm just very upset about the current driver situation. Needless to say, this will be the last of my business you'll be seeing for the foreseeable future.

Next time, invest 10x the hardward cost in dev you'll keep more loyal customers.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:41 pm Reply with quote
pcHDTV_tech
 
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 295




While I completely agree with your reasons for being upset, I'm afraid Linux has made a very bad Catch22 for all hardware vendors out there. If pcHDTV had released a proprietary driver there would be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth about "open source". pcHDTV went with incorporating support into the Video for Linux open source project and now is at the mercy of kernel interface changes, distros that release "patched" kernels that will no longer compile the drivers, an open source community that refactors their code about as often as they sneeze, etc. etc.

I'm an independent contractor for pcHDTV. I have tried to keep up with the mountain of changes that have gone on around the driver set for them. As a vendor of hardware pcHDTV takes flack for every issue that belongs squarely at the feet of the open source community at linuxtv.org. Every other card out there is experiencing these same issues between the linuxtv.org project and the various kernel releases. The difference is other vendors don't give a damn if your card doesn't work right under linux. A working windows driver doesn't need to be constantly refactored or tweaked but a working linux driver can't go a month without needing a modification somewhere; because someone else changed something. That's a lot of development $$$s to support an OS that is trying to kill itself by committee.

These are my own personal rants and I'll probably get a reprimand if Jack sees this, but my pain in trying to do my job has increased manifold over the last year. As a contractor I could walk away from this any time I felt like it, but Jack at pcHDTV truly wants to see linux succede, and I support him in that. The open source community is not returning the love.

My $0.02 (more or less)

Rusty
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:19 am Reply with quote
xyzzy
 
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 225




It doesn't help that the original drivers that Jack wrote were for V4L, and then it was decided that ATSC should not be part of V4L but be part of DVB, so those drivers were thrown out.

I think you would have more luck with support if pcHDTV released programming information for the cards, instead of just providing code based on secret specs. I realize it's not entirely up to pcHDTV to release specs, but they could do more.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:17 am Reply with quote
animefreak3
 
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 41




xyzzy we're in total agreement on this. A "Linux HD card" that refuses to publish specs for it's devs, is not in line with the spirit of the community.I can now understand why the devs have not had any gainful support from pcHDTV thus far. It's just a shame for the looks of it. If they were really open in the first place, they might kick most of the issues now plagueing it.

pcHDTV_tech wrote:
Well, since you are running on the main distro pcHDTV does support, Fedora Core, ...


this does not help rusty. Mainline kernel is the best way to go. The nice thing about rpm, and opensuse is I can go from mainline kernel to suse from src patches. This makes it very easy to trouble shoot. Building, and supporting for one distro is a major bad idea.

BTW you're by copyright law not allowed to supply "proprietary drivers" for a Linux kernel. (aka binary drivers w/o including all the src) This is a clear violation of the GPL. If you can't publish specs, then do a "clean room" backward engineering of the drivers.

I'm sure you could easily get some modivated help simply by hiring one the the main devs in the linuxtv.org, and supply the testing hardware required. At twice the price, that is very cheap.

I think the mesg here is clear. If you want some love, you need to be a community player. Support that community, and it'll show you some selfmodivated love in return.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:20 pm Reply with quote
proudhawk
 
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Phoenix, Az USA




xyzzy wrote:
It doesn't help that the original drivers that Jack wrote were for V4L, and then it was decided that ATSC should not be part of V4L but be part of DVB, so those drivers were thrown out.

I think you would have more luck with support if pcHDTV released programming information for the cards, instead of just providing code based on secret specs. I realize it's not entirely up to pcHDTV to release specs, but they could do more.


OK, guess what hauppauge would have to do to make their card linux compatible? .......
A: NOTHING at all.....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:45 pm Reply with quote
xyzzy
 
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 225




Hauppauge has employee, Steven Toth, working with the people at linuxtv.org to support their products on linux.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:03 pm Reply with quote
nybbler
 
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 125




I'm not sure what specs you want them to publish. There's not much to the board that's theirs to release. There's the tuner, for which LG doesn't publish specs. There's the Conexant chip, for which a datasheet (though not the greatest in the world) has leaked all over the net. There's the A/V multiplexer, which doesn't have much to it (and is documented). And there's the way things connect together, which, aside from the A/V multiplexer, is pretty much set by the other components. Oh, and there's the phantom chip location on the back of the board... but since it isn't populated it hardly matters. I imagine it was intended to be an MPEG encoder.

PCHDTV can't publish the tuner specs without LGs approval, no matter how much you or I would like them to.

PCHDTV did write an open source driver for the tuner. There's no issue of proprietary drivers here. The driver even explains what some of the magic numbers it uses are. If you follow the formula used to get signal-to-noise ratio, you get a useful number -- it drops by about 3.5db when you add a 2:1 splitter, which is what you expect. That this formula didn't make it into the kernel mainline is a linuxtv issue, not one with PCHDTV.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that most of the problems people have been having, aside from lack of signal strength indication, have to do with the cx88 drivers, and no amount of openness would make it better.
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