Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search pcHDTV Forum Index
pcHDTV Forum

pcHDTV Forum Index -> General pcHDTV topics -> Misc thoughts/?'s: Broadcast flag, new ver of pcHDTV, ... Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic  This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic 
Misc thoughts/?'s: Broadcast flag, new ver of pcHDTV, ...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:35 am Reply with quote
Mike
Guest
 




Are there any plans for a new version of the pcHDTV, preferably with a QAM (digital cable) tuner and analog component inputs?

This would make for THE "killer card" to purchase before the broadcast flag BS goes into effect next year.

The current card looks interesting, but I would imagine many people (myself included) would be even more interested in direct cable tuning or a component signal from a cable/satellite box than doing OTA.

If it could be designed and manufactured (a few warehouses worth Smile ) before 7/1/05 it would make for a very hot product when people realize what is going on in a year....
I second that.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:48 pm Reply with quote
quickening
 
Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 2




I hate to say it, but that's exactly what I've been waiting for too. Of course I'll buy a card before that date regardless, but I'm sure the future means more HDTV thru digital cable. (in particular, Comcast in Dallas will be offering it soon) I already have a MyHD MDP-120, and it is just excruciating torture picking up broadcast signals even with an amplified directional antenna (I live in an apartment building surrounded by tall buildings). I am completely opposed to these legislated restrictions of fair use, and this may be the last chance we have to do anything about it.

I'm also curious to know if anyone has any insight into Free-To-Air satellite reception and if that capability could be integrated into the pcHDTV card. How different really is DVB?
View user's profile Send private message
Don't hold your breath
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:53 pm Reply with quote
yzf600
Guest
 




There are more hurdles to get a HD signal off your cable TV coax than just getting a QAM demodulator. Unlike over the air digital TV channels that have a standardized set of frequencies, digital (thus HD) cable "channels" can exist on any number of frequencies. Channel 300 on a cable company A will not be on the same frequency as channel 300 on cable company B. Not only that, but a single QAM modulated signal at a given frequency can contain up to 8 SD or 4 HD MPEG2 streams.

So what you really need is a map of what content exists where for that specific cable system. Cable companies rely on their hardware vendor's (Motorola or Scientific Atlanta) proprietary systems to communicate this info to their set-tops. This info is not something that the open source community would have easy access to.

An additional factor is that the cable companies encrypt their premium content. Some cable companies may go as far an encrypting every digital channel, premium or not. They were burned badly back in the old days of analog scrambling, and they spent many man-years developing systems that are very bulletproof.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:32 pm Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




the cable problem might be simple, and it might be hard.

there is a new standard in CableLabs called "CableCARD". the idea is that new televisions will/do have a slot for such a card; each cable provider has a slightly different version of the card. the purpose is subscriber authentication/decryption key permission, and perhaps frequency-related stuff as yzf600 says.

in theory, if you can get the specs for CableCARD you could build a PCHDTV PCI card that is digital cable-compatible at the lowest level. however, its not clear if the higher-level stuff, like decryption, could be made to work, since the algorithms are most likely proprietary. also its not clear if cable chipsets exist which would give you the raw mpeg data, rather than converting it to some decompressed video format.

as far as satellite is concerned there are apparently PCI-based echostar tuners available, for free-to-air stuff. i was surprised to learn this. my experience is with directv. my understanding is that directv is so secretive with its specs that even Tivo had a very difficult time developing the DirecTiVo. so i'm guessing that a PCI-based D* card is a total impossibility.
View user's profile Send private message
hmmm
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:57 am Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




http://www.amdpower.com/sections.php4?op=viewarticle&artid=112
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:02 pm Reply with quote
Guest
 




pfile wrote:
as far as satellite is concerned there are apparently PCI-based echostar tuners available, for free-to-air stuff. i was surprised to learn this. my experience is with directv. my understanding is that directv is so secretive with its specs that even Tivo had a very difficult time developing the DirecTiVo. so i'm guessing that a PCI-based D* card is a total impossibility.


Not altogether true. Directv does have a standard spec that STB manufacturers have to comply with. The real problem is the security provider (I worked there for 6 years) -- you will never see a PCI-based receiver.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:48 pm Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




i guess what i meant by "a difficult time" was, for instance, the requirement that all signals that had anything to do with the satellite receiver portions of the circuit had to be routed on inner layers of the board. aside from impedance requirements, this is an unprecedented level of paranoia.

Anonymous wrote:
pfile wrote:
as far as satellite is concerned there are apparently PCI-based echostar tuners available, for free-to-air stuff. i was surprised to learn this. my experience is with directv. my understanding is that directv is so secretive with its specs that even Tivo had a very difficult time developing the DirecTiVo. so i'm guessing that a PCI-based D* card is a total impossibility.


Not altogether true. Directv does have a standard spec that STB manufacturers have to comply with. The real problem is the security provider (I worked there for 6 years) -- you will never see a PCI-based receiver.
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:42 am Reply with quote
Guest
 




I presume you mean the CAM. 'Getting started' costs for integration are hundreds of thousands of dollars. Tuner/demod/routing is all covered in the STB standard spec. There is paranoia because this is a multi-billion-dollar industry.

As for pci-host cablecards or encrypted qam pci decoders, doubtful you will see those either. I laugh when people keep asking about a QAM-in-the-clear decoder board. It is equally as futile as the notion of a DTV receiver board.

The transport for cable delivery is defined by open standards as defined in iso mpeg, eia, opencable, scte and cea. There is no 'voodoo' at work here, and proprietary goes as far as vendor-specific technology such as broadcast file system which rides inside the transport. That 'map' is an mpeg2 qam-modulated transport, and all those sd streams are just ps streams in the ts. No rocket science there.

pfile wrote:
i guess what i meant by "a difficult time" was, for instance, the requirement that all signals that had anything to do with the satellite receiver portions of the circuit had to be routed on inner layers of the board. aside from impedance requirements, this is an unprecedented level of paranoia.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:49 am Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




aside from the fact that most cable providers seem to have turned on 5C for almost everything (even stuff that's otherwise 5C free OTA,) why is QAM in the clear laughable? i thought the OREN part that's on the HD3000 could already handle QAM256?

agreed about the PCI-based cablecard; first of all you probably have to pay cablelabs a buttload of money to get the spec, and i'm sure they'd never qual your board.


Anonymous wrote:
I presume you mean the CAM. 'Getting started' costs for integration are hundreds of thousands of dollars. Tuner/demod/routing is all covered in the STB standard spec. There is paranoia because this is a multi-billion-dollar industry.

As for pci-host cablecards or encrypted qam pci decoders, doubtful you will see those either. I laugh when people keep asking about a QAM-in-the-clear decoder board. It is equally as futile as the notion of a DTV receiver board.

The transport for cable delivery is defined by open standards as defined in iso mpeg, eia, opencable, scte and cea. There is no 'voodoo' at work here, and proprietary goes as far as vendor-specific technology such as broadcast file system which rides inside the transport. That 'map' is an mpeg2 qam-modulated transport, and all those sd streams are just ps streams in the ts. No rocket science there.

pfile wrote:
i guess what i meant by "a difficult time" was, for instance, the requirement that all signals that had anything to do with the satellite receiver portions of the circuit had to be routed on inner layers of the board. aside from impedance requirements, this is an unprecedented level of paranoia.
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:58 am Reply with quote
Guest
 




pfile wrote:
aside from the fact that most cable providers seem to have turned on 5C for almost everything (even stuff that's otherwise 5C free OTA,) why is QAM in the clear laughable? i thought the OREN part that's on the HD3000 could already handle QAM256?


5C has nothing to do with the cryptosystem used on the transport coming from the headend, it is client-side only. Last time I checked the HD3000 had no cam or pod (nor did I ever hear of any company having the nerve to even to attempt to ask for integration services) - same goes for all the other boards. Nagra, Irdeto, NDS -- you won't see them integrating a cam or pod that can legally decode ca here in the usa onto any qam or atsc (you can encrypt that too) board anytime soon.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:24 am Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




fair enough, i didnt realize the STB did the encryption for 5C. makes sense i suppose since generally its for encryption over the firewire link (and i suppose HDMI)

but what i am saying is that if the cable company is not encrypting the stream (i.e. you don't need cablecard for authentication/decryption), why is QAM in the clear impossible? i thought i had read reports of people receiving in-the-clear cable HD with their HD3000s.

Anonymous wrote:
pfile wrote:
aside from the fact that most cable providers seem to have turned on 5C for almost everything (even stuff that's otherwise 5C free OTA,) why is QAM in the clear laughable? i thought the OREN part that's on the HD3000 could already handle QAM256?


5C has nothing to do with the cryptosystem used on the transport coming from the headend, it is client-side only. Last time I checked the HD3000 had no cam or pod (nor did I ever hear of any company having the nerve to even to attempt to ask for integration services) - same goes for all the other boards. Nagra, Irdeto, NDS -- you won't see them integrating a cam or pod that can legally decode ca here in the usa onto any qam or atsc (you can encrypt that too) board anytime soon.
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:44 am Reply with quote
Guest
 




pfile wrote:
but what i am saying is that if the cable company is not encrypting the stream (i.e. you don't need cablecard for authentication/decryption), why is QAM in the clear impossible? i thought i had read reports of people receiving in-the-clear cable HD with their HD3000s.


Sure -- if you don't mind seeing only local channels (fox, cbs, nbc, pbs, etc.), and being at the whim of the cable company (with regard to them just applying encryption across the board on all channels).

During the digial teething and test stages many cable cos did not encrypt premium content (through configuration error or intent, who knows). People are still looking at that and thinking that by picking up a pci qam tuner they will be able to receive premium content. Thats where the real confusion is and thats what people never seem to get - it ain't gonna happen.

Its partly the fault of the board vendors too - I've never seen (fox example) the Fusion qam decoder card listed with a disclaimer of 'will only be able to pick up locals, and not guaranteed to work'.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:54 am Reply with quote
Scott Larson
 
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 713
Location: Portland, OR




I don't see how boards like the HD-2000 and HD-3000 could possibly comply with the broadcast flag and still work. It seems like if the card sees the flag, it couldn't send anything to /dev/dtv.

Quote:
However, digital TV tuner cards in Personal Computers using PVR software will need to insure that any recordings of flagged TV programs on to the PCs hard drive are securely protected to prevent unauthorized redistribution to the Internet.


Which is impossible, right?
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:00 am Reply with quote
pfile
 
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 80




actually they should work fine. i think 5C is just a flag and that is all. a STB is supposed to detect this and then encrypt any data its delivering out of its firewire ports, or HDMI or DVI ports.

if the HD2000/3000 driver ignores this, everything should be fine. but that's separate from what we were discussing above; cable companies are encrypting their digital cable, and that has nothing to do with the broadcast flag; its a totally separate standard.

Scott Larson wrote:
I don't see how boards like the HD-2000 and HD-3000 could possibly comply with the broadcast flag and still work. It seems like if the card sees the flag, it couldn't send anything to /dev/dtv.

Quote:
However, digital TV tuner cards in Personal Computers using PVR software will need to insure that any recordings of flagged TV programs on to the PCs hard drive are securely protected to prevent unauthorized redistribution to the Internet.


Which is impossible, right?
View user's profile Send private message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:17 am Reply with quote
Scott Larson
 
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 713
Location: Portland, OR




pfile wrote:
actually they should work fine. i think 5C is just a flag and that is all. a STB is supposed to detect this and then encrypt any data its delivering out of its firewire ports, or HDMI or DVI ports.

I'm talking about the broadcast flag, not the 5C flag that's already been implemented in STB's. HD-2000 and HD-3000 don't comply with the broadcast flag but it looks like future cards will have to.
View user's profile Send private message
Misc thoughts/?'s: Broadcast flag, new ver of pcHDTV, ...
  pcHDTV Forum Index -> General pcHDTV topics
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All times are GMT - 7 Hours  
Page 1 of 2  
Goto page 1, 2  Next
  
  
 Post new topic  This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.  


Powered by phpBB © 2001-2003 phpBB Group
Theme created by Vjacheslav Trushkin