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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:27 am Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




JohnK wrote:
(2) PCI-X is an extension to PCI2.2 Reference
(Dig into the PDF tutorial)
As such, the statement that the HD3000 is PCI2.2 compliant is correct.
.

pchdtv claimed that their product was "universal PCI 2.2 compliant". They never claimed that they implemented pci-x extentions. I never held them to that standard.

JohnK wrote:
(3) As to whose fault it is, Dell's or PC HDTV's. I would sumbit that that fault is in the consumer. I for one, recently upgraded a Dell Poweredge SC1600 to a Dell PowerEdge 1800. The SC1600 had 2 PCI 5 V cards in to. The 1800 has only 1 5V PCI slots - I had to upgrade one of the cards to a PCI-express in order to keep the same config.


First of all, try to get your facts strait. This is the actual quote from pchdtv's website:
http://pchdtv.com/hd_3000_right_down.html wrote:
The HD-3000 Hi Definition Television PCI Card is an universal PCI 2.2 compliant card


Do you dispute that? The website is for everyone to see. I didn't think so.

Second what does that mean?

Well I suggest you read the legal definition of fraud.

http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/white_collar_crimes/fraud.htm wrote:
What is fraud?

Fraud is defined to be "an intentional perversion of truth" or a "false misrepresentation of a matter of fact" which induces another person to "part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right".


Lets go over the list:
1. "An intentional perversion of truth" or a "false misrepresentation of a matter of fact". Check: false misrepresentation of a matter of fact.
2. "Part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right". Check: Money.

Therefore, the party that has done wrong is the one to blame.

With an attitude like this, you would have done great at Enron. After all, they were only guilty of the same offence.

-HDTV Buff
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:10 pm Reply with quote
JohnK
 
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 2




You bought up PCI-X. I didn't. As to:
Quote:
The HD-3000 Hi Definition Television PCI Card is an universal PCI 2.2 compliant card

After looking at the specs and check sheet at pcisig.com, I would say that this is open to interpretation. SPECIFICALLY, the HD-3000 Card is in fact compliant with a computer that has a PCI2.2 universal bus. The specs and the checklists allow for either a card or a bus to be universal compliant. In PCI Spec 2.3, in fact - 5V expansion cards are no longer supported, HOWEVER, 5V MOTHERBOARDS are! The point being that if a board is 2.2 or 2.3 universal compliant, it is supposed to support 5V cards. Dell, in their infinite wisdom has been phasing out 5V slots, but so long as they have 1, they can be 2.2, 2.3 universal compliant.
Now, You're probably not going to take the point of view that when PCHDTV said the card was universal 2.2 compliant, he was was talking about the Motherboard. Fine, after i got my facts straight I see room for mis-interpretation.

As for Fraud, as you yourself quoted, fraud requires intent. Intent would minimally require that you attempt to return the product and the request was denied. Most courts in fact wouldn't even entertain even a civil case unless you, the consumer, took that step. Did you, upon finding that the card would not work in your system, attempt to return it ?
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:23 pm Reply with quote
Computer buff
 
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Location: West Coast




HDTV buff wrote:

Did you know starting with pci version 2.3, 5v slots are not even allowed to exist in computers?

I missed responding to this originally. Actually PCI 2.3 doesn't allow 5V cards but it does allow universal support on motherboards which means that 5V cards can work if the MB designer chooses to support them. Now PCI 3.0 does away with that but I doubt it will take over because PCI express is going to steal its thunder.

HDTV buff wrote:

How particularly ironic that you would ask for links when you posted none.

Now if I had links to off the shelf MBs that didn't support 5V I wouldn't need to ask, would I? I can provide lots of links to MBs that support 5V cards but that is irrelevant isn't it?

HDTV buff wrote:

Having said that, here is the computer I am using to post write this message is Dell PowerEdge 600SC. I have had this for years. Check out the pictures of the motherboard at http://www.2cpu.com/articles/38_2.html . Notice it does not have *any* 5v slots.

I'd say you had it for two since two my knowledge it's been around for about two years. Do you know that Dell doesn't officiall support sound cards in this system -- *any* sound card. That's not to say you won't find one that will happen to work but Dell won't support your machine. That makes a nice HTPC when you can't officially have a sound card, eh?

Also, from the looks of it, it will only support universal cards. The fact that it has both keys in the PCI slots means that it will block a 3.3V only card from going in too. (That's not to say you are actually going to find any 3.3V only cards to try.Wink

HDTV buff wrote:

Here is the bottom line: there is no upgrade path for 5v cards. They cannot be migrated into newer stuff (unlike 3.3v cards). Maybe you will continue to buy 5v motherboards forever. In that case, I wish you best of luck.

How many cards that you bought, oh say, 5 years ago are you trying to put into a brand spanking new computer? The world is moving to PCI express but there will continue to be PCI slots for some time. (Think about how long PCI and ISA coexisted.) My bet is these PCI slots will be universal which means they will take a 5V card if I want them to. Any mainstream MB that doesn't support 5V PCI cards is limiting its market and that is something that an off-the-shelf MB can't afford to do. (Niche boards are another story but they are a very small subset and not by their nature they are not mainstream.)

On the other hand, my tuner cards are in a relatively low power backend and I'll bet they will still be there 5 years from now -- if the HD-3000s are still around that is.

HDTV buff wrote:

----- capture card links -----

To answer the last part of your question. Are there any other cards that can capture hdtv. Remember, I said anyone competent enough to use google. You claim that you are not.


First thing is to look at the bttv driver.

Google bttv search. Try going to "bttv gallery". These are capture cards supported by the bttv driver. The list is quite long.

May be you still are not competent enough to look further (remember, minimum competency of searching google is required--which you claim you do not have).

Google Search hdtv capture linux. The first hit is a slashdot article that talks about hdtv capture cards. Show only post with ratings of "4" or above, you will discover all sorts of links and testimonials. E.g. Comment about fusionhdtv 3 and Re:how about.

FusionHDTV3 has been replaced with FusionHDTV5. Interestingly enough, it had qam support for six months before pchdtv did. The driver for FusionHDTV5 will be added to dvb cvs soon.

If you don't mind writing a linux driver--what am I saying, you can't even google!--then you have a host of choices.

I can use google -- you just can't read. These cards you link to don't seem to work in linux. DOH!!

HDTV buff wrote:

I am waiting on verification that the FusionHDTV5 does not have any broadcast flag stuff in it (I know broadcast flag was defeated, but product designs cycles are significantly longer). If it is clear, I will order it.

With the modular design of the dvb, writing a driver is truly a trivial task. For comparison, pchdtv driver was only a couple of hundred lines of code.

Oh wait, this doesn't seem to have any support in linux at this point in time. I guess you can write the driver. A couple of hundred lines? You should be able to whip this out in no time. (I don't think you've written code before because a couple of hundred lines of kernel driver code isn't trivial unless the device itself is trivial. I know -- I've written Windows and linux driver code.)

The bulk of the problem isn't even writing the code. The problem is getting the specs to the hardware. Without the specs all you can do is have some knowledge of how these things work, start analyzing the PCI bus transactions when the card is in a Windows box, try doing the same types of things, and keep your fingers crossed.

HDTV buff wrote:

Now that I cannot plug more then one of those cards in my machine. Whose fault is it anyway? Dell who followed the spec or pchdtv who did not follow the spec?

Wait, I thought you had no 5V support... Oh, that's on that one machine that Dell made that won't even support 3.3V only cards. I guess they didn't read the spec. Silly them.

Now if the other machines only support one 5V card then that is a choice that Dell made.

Perhaps the problem is that you are trying to use server machines. It seems that Dell's home PCs and workstations, at least to the best of my knowledge, have all universal PCI slots which means that you can fill them up with 5V cards.

HDTV buff wrote:

I don't know why you would defend their lying so vigorously. *At best* what they are doing is lying. At worst it is fraud. Pure and simple.

I'm not defending lying. Perhaps they should use a little less marketing obfuscation and say it is a 5V card and won't work in systems that don't support 5V cards but I've never seen any company do that. The bottom line is that it will work in a MB that supports PCI 2.2 universal cards. That's all they claim and that's what it does.[/img]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:13 pm Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




JohnK wrote:
You bought up PCI-X. I didn't. As to:
Quote:
The HD-3000 Hi Definition Television PCI Card is an universal PCI 2.2 compliant card

After looking at the specs and check sheet at pcisig.com, I would say that this is open to interpretation. SPECIFICALLY, the HD-3000 Card is in fact compliant with a computer that has a PCI2.2 universal bus.


Again, I find I have to correct you.

http://pchdtv.com/hd_3000.html wrote:
The HD-3000 Hi Definition Television PCI Card is an universal PCI 2.2 compliant card


They did not say it was compatible with a universal pci 2.2 computer. More on that below.

JohnK wrote:
After looking at the specs and check sheet at pcisig.com, I would say that this is open to interpretation. SPECIFICALLY, the HD-3000 Card is in fact compliant with a computer that has a PCI2.2 universal bus. The specs and the checklists allow for either a card or a bus to be universal compliant.


It is unfortunate that your understanding of these concepts is so feeble.

See any specific pci slot can only provide 3.3v or 5v. There is no such thing as a universal 3.3v/5v pci motherboard slot. Motherboards have more then one slot (some 3.3v, some 5v). However, any specific slot can only be either 3.3v or 5v.

That is not open to interpretation. That is a fact. Look it up.

Universal motherboard pci slot only exists in your imagination. There is no such thing.

JohnK wrote:
As for Fraud, as you yourself quoted, fraud requires intent. Intent would minimally require that you attempt to return the product and the request was denied.


I see you know "tv law". I guess in your mind, the person has to confess to on the stand to show intent.

Proving intent is not nearly as difficult as you think. The legal standard is not even if they knew. Rather, they "knew or should have known".

Shoplifting is an example if a crime. It requires intent. The person "knew or should have known" that shoplifting is illegal.

It caries a very high conviction rate. Just go to your local court house for a day.

Another legal concept you don't seem to grasp (when you suggested about returning the product) is that you cannot change the past. What is done is done.

Back to my example of shoplifting. Most of the time the people caught shoplifting, the merchandise is returned to the store. Even though the store has not lost any perchandise, the person is usually still convicted of shoplifting. What is done is done. You cannot change the past.

Insurance companies routinely procecute fraud. Yes intent is needed, but it the procecution merely need to show that the defandant "knew or should have known".

I have not even touched other criminal problems such as truth in advertising laws. They don't even require any intent. Just a showing of false and/or misleading advertising. And yes, that is part of criminal code.

-HDTV Buff
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:43 pm Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

Did you know starting with pci version 2.3, 5v slots are not even allowed to exist in computers?

I missed responding to this originally. Actually PCI 2.3 doesn't allow 5V cards but it does allow universal support on motherboards which means that 5V cards can work if the MB designer chooses to support them. Now PCI 3.0 does away with that but I doubt it will take over because PCI express is going to steal its thunder.

HDTV buff wrote:

How particularly ironic that you would ask for links when you posted none.

Now if I had links to off the shelf MBs that didn't support 5V I wouldn't need to ask, would I? I can provide lots of links to MBs that support 5V cards but that is irrelevant isn't it?


There is no such thing as a universal 3.3v/5v motherboard slot.

Your knowledge level on the subject matter speaks for itself.

Computer buff wrote:
I'd say you had it for two since two my knowledge it's been around for about two years. Do you know that Dell doesn't officiall support sound cards in this system -- *any* sound card. That's not to say you won't find one that will happen to work but Dell won't support your machine. That makes a nice HTPC when you can't officially have a sound card, eh?

Also, from the looks of it, it will only support universal cards. The fact that it has both keys in the PCI slots means that it will block a 3.3V only card from going in too. (That's not to say you are actually going to find any 3.3V only cards to try.Wink


1) Dell does not officially support any hardware that they do not sell. My creative Audigy card works great. Thanks for asking.

2) No it will not block a 3.3v card. It takes both universal and 3.3v cards just fine. Thanks for caring.

3) It does not have "both keys". That is just your lack of understanding about the subject matter. The second "key" you refer to is the 64 bit extentions.

Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

----- capture card links -----

To answer the last part of your question. Are there any other cards that can capture hdtv. Remember, I said anyone competent enough to use google. You claim that you are not.


First thing is to look at the bttv driver.

Google bttv search. Try going to "bttv gallery". These are capture cards supported by the bttv driver. The list is quite long.

May be you still are not competent enough to look further (remember, minimum competency of searching google is required--which you claim you do not have).

Google Search hdtv capture linux. The first hit is a slashdot article that talks about hdtv capture cards. Show only post with ratings of "4" or above, you will discover all sorts of links and testimonials. E.g. Comment about fusionhdtv 3 and Re:how about.

FusionHDTV3 has been replaced with FusionHDTV5. Interestingly enough, it had qam support for six months before pchdtv did. The driver for FusionHDTV5 will be added to dvb cvs soon.

If you don't mind writing a linux driver--what am I saying, you can't even google!--then you have a host of choices.

I can use google -- you just can't read. These cards you link to don't seem to work in linux. DOH!!


You competence level speaks for itself.

Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

I am waiting on verification that the FusionHDTV5 does not have any broadcast flag stuff in it (I know broadcast flag was defeated, but product designs cycles are significantly longer). If it is clear, I will order it.

With the modular design of the dvb, writing a driver is truly a trivial task. For comparison, pchdtv driver was only a couple of hundred lines of code.

Oh wait, this doesn't seem to have any support in linux at this point in time. I guess you can write the driver. A couple of hundred lines? You should be able to whip this out in no time. (I don't think you've written code before because a couple of hundred lines of kernel driver code isn't trivial unless the device itself is trivial. I know -- I've written Windows and linux driver code.)

The bulk of the problem isn't even writing the code. The problem is getting the specs to the hardware. Without the specs all you can do is have some knowledge of how these things work, start analyzing the PCI bus transactions when the card is in a Windows box, try doing the same types of things, and keep your fingers crossed.


That depends on how much code you can re-use. That particular card just has newer revs of the same chipsets.

If interface to the card is indeed downward compatible, then it should be a matter of adding pci ids to cx88-cards.c.

"Trivial" is a relative word. Some people can't even google. Obviously for them, it would be a very big deal.

For competent people, adding a couple of pci ids to cx88-cards.c is really not a big deal.

Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

Now that I cannot plug more then one of those cards in my machine. Whose fault is it anyway? Dell who followed the spec or pchdtv who did not follow the spec?

Wait, I thought you had no 5V support... Oh, that's on that one machine that Dell made that won't even support 3.3V only cards. I guess they didn't read the spec. Silly them.

Now if the other machines only support one 5V card then that is a choice that Dell made.

Perhaps the problem is that you are trying to use server machines. It seems that Dell's home PCs and workstations, at least to the best of my knowledge, have all universal PCI slots which means that you can fill them up with 5V cards.


There is no such thing as "universal PCI slots". Just get it through your head. No such thing.

Computer buff wrote:
I'm not defending lying.


Yes you are.

At least you are acknowledging that they are lying.

The Attorneys General don't find this kind of false or misleading advertising very funny.

-HDTV Buff
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Computer buff
 
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Location: West Coast




HDTV buff wrote:
There is no such thing as a universal 3.3v/5v motherboard slot.

Your knowledge level on the subject matter speaks for itself.

It may not be an official term in the spec but have you tried to google for "universal PCI slot"?

HDTV buff wrote:

1) Dell does not officially support any hardware that they do not sell. My creative Audigy card works great. Thanks for asking.

2) No it will not block a 3.3v card. It takes both universal and 3.3v cards just fine. Thanks for caring.

3) It does not have "both keys". That is just your lack of understanding about the subject matter. The second "key" you refer to is the 64 bit extentions.

I was simply pointing out that Dell support specifically makes a point of saying they don't support sound cards for that system.

As for your other points, my bad, the picture I had looked at was like the top picture of the website you point to but there was no way to zoom in or get a larger image. From the small picture it looked like a 32 bit slot with keys in both the 3.3V and 5V positions. Looking at larger images from the site you point to they are clearly 3.3V PCI-X slots.

HDTV buff wrote:
Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

To answer the last part of your question. Are there any other cards that can capture hdtv. Remember, I said anyone competent enough to use google. You claim that you are not.

I can use google -- you just can't read. These cards you link to don't seem to work in linux. DOH!!


You competence level speaks for itself.

I see you don't deny that the only ATSC cards that are supported by linux at this point in time are the HD-2000, HD-3000, and Air2PC. You provided a list to a bunch of cards that I already knew about and the list is populated primarily by cards that don't do ATSC or don't currently work in linux. Hmm, do you really want to turn the discussion toward competence???

HDTV buff wrote:

That depends on how much code you can re-use. That particular card just has newer revs of the same chipsets.

If interface to the card is indeed downward compatible, then it should be a matter of adding pci ids to cx88-cards.c.

"Trivial" is a relative word. Some people can't even google. Obviously for them, it would be a very big deal.

For competent people, adding a couple of pci ids to cx88-cards.c is really not a big deal.

If what you say is true, then ideally it would be this simple and you are right it would be a trivial matter. If on the other hand it truely was this simple then the work would surely already be done and we would see a sucess story. This leads me to believe that this isn't an ideal case and thus it's not trivial. This is just speculation on my part though. Time will tell. (Or you can buy a card and find out that you can't get it to work.Wink

HDTV buff wrote:

There is no such thing as "universal PCI slots". Just get it through your head. No such thing.

One of many references to a "univeral PCI slot" I can find. This one is from the spec page from a Dell user guide: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/CS6CH/en/ug/dell_ceh.htm
Quote:

Recommended Minimum System Requirements


Server or workstation with one universal PCI slot and a motherboard and BIOS that complies with the PCI Local Bus Specification, Revision 2.2 and provides large memory-mapped address ranges.

I can find similar reference on Intel's website. I guess that doesn't make it right but if your favorite computer company, Dell, and Intel are both using the term I would guess it is at least an acceptable practice.

HDTV buff wrote:

Computer buff wrote:
I'm not defending lying.


Yes you are.

At least you are acknowledging that they are lying.

??? You seem to like to put words in peoples' mouths.

Funny. Dell says that this card http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?TabPage=techspecs&sku=A0070375&category_id=5584&c=us&l=en&cs=19
simply requires a PCI slot. That implies it will work in *any* PCI slot. Oops, not yours -- it's a 5v card! Who in this day and age still sells 5V cards?!?!? Let's sue for false advertising -- they are like those Enron crooks! (Simply referring to your previous post where you imply pcHDTV is like Enron. Yeah, right.)

Time to move on and enjoy my HD myth boxes which I was competent enough to build and get working...
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:35 am Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




Computer buff wrote:
It may not be an official term in the spec but have you tried to google for "universal PCI slot"?


Have you tried to google for martians are coming? Just because you get google results (132,000) does not make it so.

Do you really expect us to believe you are that feeble minded to not know this?

Geesh, someone get this person an egg to shine his head.

Computer buff wrote:
I see you don't deny that the only ATSC cards that are supported by linux at this point in time are the HD-2000, HD-3000, and Air2PC. You provided a list to a bunch of cards that I already knew about and the list is populated primarily by cards that don't do ATSC or don't currently work in linux. Hmm, do you really want to turn the discussion toward competence???


I did not provide link to Air2PC card.

I provided links to myHD and FusionHDTV series (there are at least three cards in that series).

Again, your competance level speaks for itself.

Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

There is no such thing as "universal PCI slots". Just get it through your head. No such thing.

One of many references to a "univeral PCI slot" I can find. This one is from the spec page from a Dell user guide: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/CS6CH/en/ug/dell_ceh.htm


You are reading the specs for a raid controller. A pci card.

I said that there is no such thing as "universal pci slot" on the motherboard. There are plenty of vendors that make universal pci card.

Do you really expect us to believe you are that feeble minded to not know the difference?

Just get it through your thick head: there is no such thing as a universal motherboard pci slot. What a moron.

Computer buff wrote:
Funny. Dell says that this card http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?TabPage=techspecs&sku=A0070375&category_id=5584&c=us&l=en&cs=19


Dell never said that it was a universal pci card. pcHDTV did. There is a difference.

Are you going to point out that Enron committed fraud as well?

This is where your serious lack of understanding of legal concepts is showing. There is a legal concept that it does not matter what anyone else does. You are responsible for your own actions.

Let me give you an example. I routinely travel Interstate I-495. It is estimated (conservatively) that more than 400,000 vehicles travel on it every day.

There is only one State Police barracks that covers it and tickets people on it. At any given time they may have only one or two police cars are ticketing people.

If I get a ticket, I cannot use the excuse that I was traveling at the same speed as everyone else. Or you only gave me a ticket but ignored thousands of other cars that were also speeding.

The fact that others were speeding (breaking the law) would not even be admissible (as fact or evidence).

In the eyes of the law, it does not matter whay anyone else did. You are responsible for your actions.

You trying to show what anyone else did not not help your case. It just makes you sound like person who does not have a clue about conepts at hand.

-HDTV Buff
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:18 am Reply with quote
Computer buff
 
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Location: West Coast




HDTV buff wrote:

Computer buff wrote:
I see you don't deny that the only ATSC cards that are supported by linux at this point in time are the HD-2000, HD-3000, and Air2PC. You provided a list to a bunch of cards that I already knew about and the list is populated primarily by cards that don't do ATSC or don't currently work in linux. Hmm, do you really want to turn the discussion toward competence???


I did not provide link to Air2PC card.

I provided links to myHD and FusionHDTV series (there are at least three cards in that series).

Again, your competance level speaks for itself.

Once again, you need to learn to read. Did I say that you provided a link to the Air2PC card? No.

Yes you provided links to MyHD and the FusionHDTV series -- but they don't work in linux now or for the foreseeable future which was the whole point. Right now, if you want to capture ATSC in linux with a commercially available card then you need to buy a 5V card. Period. End of story.

And yes, at this point in time I seem to be at least fairly compentent. Thank you very much for for the acknowlegement.

HDTV buff wrote:
Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

There is no such thing as "universal PCI slots". Just get it through your head. No such thing.

One of many references to a "univeral PCI slot" I can find. This one is from the spec page from a Dell user guide: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/storage/CS6CH/en/ug/dell_ceh.htm


You are reading the specs for a raid controller. A pci card.

I said that there is no such thing as "universal pci slot" on the motherboard. There are plenty of vendors that make universal pci card.

Do you really expect us to believe you are that feeble minded to not know the difference?

Just get it through your thick head: there is no such thing as a universal motherboard pci slot. What a moron.

Without resorting to name calling, I will simply requote the specs for the PCI card. (Did I every say it was for a motherboard? No, thank you very much.)
Quote:

Recommended Minimum System Requirements

Server or workstation with one universal PCI slot and a motherboard and BIOS that complies with the PCI Local Bus Specification, Revision 2.2 and provides large memory-mapped address ranges.

Note that the PCI card says that the system (read motherboard) that it plugs into needs to have one universal PCI slot. So, yes, they are talking about a motherboard having a universal PCI slot.

I'll say it again that terminology may not be in the PCI spec but that does not mean that it is not an acceptable term. If it isn't acceptable, and only morons use that terminology as you suggest, then perhaps you should let Intel, Dell, Adaptec, and all the other companies that use the term that they are all morons.
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:52 am Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




Computer buff wrote:
Yes you provided links to MyHD and the FusionHDTV series -- but they don't work in linux now or for the foreseeable future which was the whole point. Right now, if you want to capture ATSC in linux with a commercially available card then you need to buy a 5V card. Period. End of story.

And yes, at this point in time I seem to be at least fairly compentent. Thank you very much for for the acknowlegement.


A competant person would have known:

1) Fusion HDTV cards have been supported for almost a year now. They are included in the "vanilla" kernel. Before that, their home was http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~chrisp/Linux-DVB/DVICO/ . They have patches to the driver going back to 2.6.10 (when it was included in the kernel but had bugs).

2) Would not bable about "foreseeable future" when the drivers have been up and running for a while now (since 2.6.9 days).

3) QAM support was added to those drivers in 2004.

4) All Fusion series cards (series 3 and 5) are universal cards.

A friendly advise, don't mention your competance. Not after making statements like this.

Also avoid using terms like "period" and "end of story". Do you have any idea what kind of idiot you look like when you use these terms and are wrong?

Computer buff wrote:
I will simply requote the specs for the PCI card. (Did I every say it was for a motherboard? No, thank you very much.)

Please do not requote things you lack the competance to understand.

Did you ever say it was about the motherboard? . . .
Computer buff wrote:
Actually PCI 2.3 doesn't allow 5V cards but it does allow universal support on motherboards which means that 5V cards can work if the MB designer chooses to support them


You are welcomed.

Computer buff wrote:
I'll say it again that terminology may not be in the PCI spec but that does not mean that it is not an acceptable term. If it isn't acceptable, and only morons use that terminology as you suggest, then perhaps you should let Intel, Dell, Adaptec, and all the other companies that use the term that they are all morons


I agree. Except the only moron is the one getting confused about the pci specs.

You are either defending defrauding the public, or you are too incompetent to realize that.

-HDTV Buff
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:34 pm Reply with quote
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HDTV buff wrote:

A competant person would have known:

1) Fusion HDTV cards have been supported for almost a year now. They are included in the "vanilla" kernel. Before that, their home was http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~chrisp/Linux-DVB/DVICO/ . They have patches to the driver going back to 2.6.10 (when it was included in the kernel but had bugs).

2) Would not bable about "foreseeable future" when the drivers have been up and running for a while now (since 2.6.9 days).

3) QAM support was added to those drivers in 2004.

An even more competent person would know that the cards do not yet work for ATSC. The Fushion HDTV3 Gold, for example, does work for DVB-T but doesn't do much good unless you live in a place such as Australia. (Hmm. The driver was written by an Aussie.) At least that is true as of May 26th when someone was still trying to get ATSC to work but wasn't getting anything out of it. They may start working some day for ATSC but then again they may not...

You seem to be hung up on that Conexant chip and driver support for it. There is more to the card. How about the tuner can? Just because the first chip in the chain is supported doesn't mean that the board will work. This is the case for the ATSC cards that you say work in linux -- the Conexant chip is supported but the board doesn't yet work for ATSC.

HDTV buff wrote:

You are reading the specs for a raid controller. A pci card.

I said that there is no such thing as "universal pci slot" on the motherboard. There are plenty of vendors that make universal pci card.

Do you really expect us to believe you are that feeble minded to not know the difference?

Just get it through your thick head: there is no such thing as a universal motherboard pci slot. What a moron.
Computer buff wrote:

I will simply requote the specs for the PCI card. (Did I every say it was for a motherboard? No, thank you very much.)

Please do not requote things you lack the competance to understand.

Did you ever say it was about the motherboard? . . .
Computer buff wrote:
Actually PCI 2.3 doesn't allow 5V cards but it does allow universal support on motherboards which means that 5V cards can work if the MB designer chooses to support them

You are welcomed.

No, you are welcome. Thank you once again for showing that you have trouble reading. Try reading it again and you will clearly see that I was responding to you saying that I thought that my link that talked about a motherboard with a universal PCI slot was a link to a motherboard. I know the link was to a PCI card -- a PCI card that says it requires a system with a "universal PCI slot". Yes the general conversation was about motherboard slots but I never said nor did I even imply that my link was to a motherboard. It was you who assumed it would be to one. A lot of PCI cards talk about requirements for the system they plug into -- isn't that what started this all? Read...
Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:41 pm Reply with quote
Computer buff
 
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Location: West Coast




Thought I was logged in. I guess I didn't notice that my login failed because my wife distracted me around that time.

Also note that my reference to being hung up on the Conexant chip was intended to be a more generic statement. I can see it now -- you are going to call me a moron because I think that all cards use a Conexant chip.
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:20 am Reply with quote
HDTV buff
 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 114
Location: Maryland, USA




Computer buff wrote:
HDTV buff wrote:

A competant person would have known:

1) Fusion HDTV cards have been supported for almost a year now. They are included in the "vanilla" kernel. Before that, their home was http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~chrisp/Linux-DVB/DVICO/ . They have patches to the driver going back to 2.6.10 (when it was included in the kernel but had bugs).

2) Would not bable about "foreseeable future" when the drivers have been up and running for a while now (since 2.6.9 days).

3) QAM support was added to those drivers in 2004.

4) All Fusion series cards (series 3 and 5) are universal cards.

A friendly advise, don't mention your competance. Not after making statements like this.

An even more competent person would know that the cards do not yet work for ATSC. The Fushion HDTV3 Gold, for example, does work for DVB-T but doesn't do much good unless you live in a place such as Australia. (Hmm. The driver was written by an Aussie.).
They may start working some day for ATSC but then again they may not...


A competant person would have known:

1) FusionHDTV3 product line works in USA and can recieve ATSC just fine.

2) They are being sold in us for a while. I suggest you go to the official webiste just to see the list of authorized resellers in the US.

3) Here is a link to the FusionHDTV3 being sold in US.

4) It does both ATSC and QAM. Don't let the "QAM" in the product name fool you--that seems to happen a lot to you--it just means that it can do QAM in addition to ATSC.

5) An Austrialian writing the driver does not mean anything. What's next? A student from Finland created Linux?

Here is the old manufacturer page. You will need to hit Escape fairly fast since it is set to refresh to FusionHDTV5 automatically. Given your competance level, that may be asking for too much.

Again, a friendly advise: don't mention your competance. Not after making statements like this.

Computer buff wrote:
the Conexant chip is supported but the board doesn't yet work for ATSC.
I can see it now -- you are going to call me a moron because I think that all cards use a Conexant chip

The board is supported just fine.

Relax, that is not why I call you a moron.

Computer buff wrote:
At least that is true as of May 26th when someone was still trying to get ATSC to work but wasn't getting anything out of it.


I guess in your mind. Someone is having problems (without resolution) = no working driver.

Here is someone having problems with pchdtv driver on May 29th. Here is on May 10th.

I wonder by your logic, if you belive that there is no working driver for pchdtv. After all, there are people who have had problems with pchdtv driver without an apparent resolution.

Just because someone is having problems does not mean that there is no such thing as a working driver in Linux.

I know you are now just trying to make stuff up to defend their defrauding the public.

After all, do you really expect us to belive that you are that incompetant?

-HDTV Buff
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:38 pm Reply with quote
Blue Saturday
 
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 11




Anonymous wrote:
BTW, a glance at PCI cards which are being sold right now shows that there are a fair number of 5V only cards being made and sold. It looks to me like *every* Turtle Beach audio card is 5V only and it looks like a lot of the USB, 1394, USB/1394 combo, and RS232/IEEE1284 cards are 5V only.


USB and 1394 ports have to be able to deliver amps of +5vdc to outboard devices. It's easiest to just draw that from the pci bus. In the future they'll probably all have power connectors on them.
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:57 pm Reply with quote
Blue Saturday
 
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 11




HDTV buff wrote:


pchdtv claimed that their product was "universal PCI 2.2 compliant". They never claimed that they implemented pci-x extentions. I never held them to that standard.

Fraud is defined to be "an intentional perversion of truth" or a "false misrepresentation of a matter of fact" which induces another person to "part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right".

Lets go over the list:
1. "An intentional perversion of truth" or a "false misrepresentation of a matter of fact". Check: false misrepresentation of a matter of fact.
2. "Part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right". Check: Money.

Therefore, the party that has done wrong is the one to blame.
-HDTV Buff



I don't understand what you've got your knickers in a twist over.

If you're such a sharp, on the ball guy, you'd have noted from the picture, as i did, that it's a 5v card.

I'm also quite certain that the faq has pointed out that it's a 5v card for as long as i can remember, certainly at least 6 months ago. I think you'd have a very hard time trying to prove intent in a court of law.

If you're unhappy send it back or sell it to someone who doesn't care that it's a 5v card. A lot of capture cards are 5v only - many of the Hauppaugge cards, for example. Not that I'm any fan of HH.

Either not all the parts on the card are 3.3v tolerant or the engineers made a judgement call that the 3.3v parts are too sensitive to the huge amount of noise on any pci slot's power rail and designed their way around it by including their own regulator.

What do you expect to accomplish complaining about it?
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Re: 5 volt
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Blue Saturday
 
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 11




HDTV buff wrote:
I am waiting on verification that the FusionHDTV5 does not have any broadcast flag stuff in it (I know broadcast flag was defeated, but product designs cycles are significantly longer). If it is clear, I will order it.

-HDTV Buff



You have thoroughly failed to grasp the nature of the situation.

There is no "broadcast flag stuff" in any PC capture device to date.

The "broadcast flag" is just an element of the program stream within the transport stream.

The tuner card is operating at a level where it's not even aware of the transport stream, let alone it's contents. All it knows is whether the front end (the RF part under the can) is locked, what the front end says the signal strength is, and whether the stream is passing the CRC checks - expressed to you as a bit error rate.

The problem with the broadcast flag with regard to capture devices for computers is twofold.

First, it requires that the metadata within the transport stream be decoded and parsed. This means that it is outside of the ability of, for example, the CX88, to determine whether a given program has the broadcast flag or not - because first it has to understand the transport stream, and then it has to be able to discern between the program streams within the transport stream, and then it has to be able to parse the metadata within that program stream. It's too much processing for a little cx88.

So this immediately requires something like an old AccessDTV card or one of the more expensive Hauppaugge cards that are able to decode the stream on-card, if the FCC determines that the hardware itself be capable of respecting the flag.

Second, the FCC wanted to require end-to-end respect for the broadcast flag.

What this means is that the operating system and storage devices are fully DRM capable. They have to be able to prevent an unauthorized program from accessing the stream, and from copying or at least playing a copied stream.

Since it is implied by the FCC that this is done without a traditional conditional access encryption system, this means that your operating system and hardware have to be able to physically protect the stream, and not just prevent decryption of it by denying you the keys to do so.

It is intrinsic in DRM schemes of this nature, under the DMCA, that it is not acceptable for unlicensed parties to have knowledge of the system that would allow them to disable the DRM features.

It is thus not possible, with the broadcast flag, to build an open-source HD-PVR, without first violating the DMCA.

Since this sort of DRM method relies on physical protection of data that is stored and transported in the clear, implementing appropriate DRM for the broadcast flag means either encrypting the stream before it leaves the capture device, or building computers with hardware that respect the DRM methods.

If the common PC is suddenly required to respect DRM in hardware, it then becomes legally or possibly even physically impossible to run an open source operating system on a common PC.

The *point of buying these cards before the broadcast flag goes into effect is that the FCC currently is only able to govern the SALE of electronic devices in this class, and enforces their power over the point of sale by approving or disapproving of designs.

I would not be surprised to learn of congressional committees currently reviewing proposed legislation that would grant the FCC far more power than they currently have. Under the current administration i would not be surprised by a proposal for a sweeping bowdlerization of media, and an extension of the FCC's oversight to cable, satellite, and conditional access broadcast systems which they currently do not regulate.

In summary, now that i own an HD-3000 card, if the broadcast fiag becomes required, it's just my luck that i have a pre-ban tuner card.

If the broadcast flag requirement goes into effect, it will be illegal to sell any linux-compatible tuner card that is capable of allowing the stream to be recorded. But my card will still work.

So, no, there is no "broadcast flag stuff" on the DIVICO card. Go buy one, make sweet love to it, and never darken our doorstep with your loathsome presence again.
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